Debian installers' issues with its GRUB parts...

[Ant]

Hello.

I downloaded, mounted, and booted Debian's net installer ISO (e.g., https://gemmei.ftp.acc.umu.se/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-10.10.0-amd64-netinst.iso and https://gemmei.ftp.acc.umu.se/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/bullseye_di_rc2+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-bullseye-DI-rc2-amd64-netinst.iso) in an old 64-bit W7 HPE SP1 VirtualBox v6.1 VM with a brand new virtual SSD (2 virtual drives = 1 old W7 HDD + 1 new blank SSD). I'm trying it
before doing it virtually instead of my real physical PC to learn and practice (don't want to hose my 12 yrs. old real hardware production PC!). I picked most of Debian's defaults (no GUI packages to install for now). I'm currently having problems with its GRUB bootloader part. It detected Vista, but I don't have Vista as shown in my Loading Image... screen shot/capture. I have W7!

I told it no to its "Install the GRUB boot loader to your primary drive." and picked /dev/sdb (new virtual SSD) as shown in Loading Image.... I do NOT want to use its GRUB for dual booting. I will manually boot the specific drive to boot its specific OS from BIOS. Anyways, it completed. I told BIOS to boot the new SSD with Debian, but it got stuck with a blank black screen with its blinking _ cursor: Loading Image.... My 64-bit W7's drive still boots though.

I tried again with Buster v10.10, but got the same exact results. What's wrong? :( Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

[clinker]

I'm not sure what you are asking, but maybe this will help?

First I had to change the partition table to gpt for the SSD, I needed a
1 meg blank space and a few megs of F32 for the uefi grub to be written to.

[Anssi Saari]

Post by Ant
Hello.
I downloaded, mounted, and booted Debian's net installer ISO (e.g.,
https://gemmei.ftp.acc.umu.se/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-10.10.0-amd64-netinst.iso
and
https://gemmei.ftp.acc.umu.se/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/bullseye_di_rc2+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-bullseye-DI-rc2-amd64-netinst.iso)

That already seems a little odd but OK I suppose.

Post by Ant
in an old 64-bit W7 HPE SP1 VirtualBox v6.1 VM with a brand new
virtual SSD (2 virtual drives = 1 old W7 HDD + 1 new blank SSD). I'm
trying it
before doing it virtually instead of my real physical PC to learn and
practice (don't want to hose my 12 yrs. old real hardware production
PC!). I picked most of Debian's defaults (no GUI packages to install
for now). I'm currently having problems with its GRUB bootloader
part. It detected Vista, but I don't have Vista as shown in my
https://i.ibb.co/ctfV40c/Grub-Vista.gif screen shot/capture. I have
W7!

Detection of various Windows versions isn't always that accurate. But if
you run the installer in the virtual machine there is no way for it to
see any partitions of your host system. Which means it can't mess up
your Windows 7 host system in any way. Or are you trying to install
Debian in your existing Windows 7 virtual machine? But why? Why not just
create another virtual machine?

Post by Ant
I told it no to its "Install the GRUB boot loader to your primary
drive." and picked /dev/sdb (new virtual SSD) as shown in
https://i.ibb.co/pRKBjBZ/2SDs.gif. I do NOT want to use its GRUB for
dual booting.

That's not going to happen with a virtual machine in any case. Of
course, why not use Grub?

Post by Ant
I will manually boot the specific drive to boot its specific OS from
BIOS. Anyways, it completed. I told BIOS to boot the new SSD with
Debian, but it got stuck with a blank black screen with its blinking _
cursor: https://i.ibb.co/v4xWdMP/rebooted-Stuck.gif. My 64-bit W7's
drive still boots though.

I'm not sure which BIOS you told to boot the new SSD?

[Ant]

Post by Anssi Saari

Post by Ant
Hello.
I downloaded, mounted, and booted Debian's net installer ISO (e.g.,
https://gemmei.ftp.acc.umu.se/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-10.10.0-amd64-netinst.iso
and
https://gemmei.ftp.acc.umu.se/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/bullseye_di_rc2+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-bullseye-DI-rc2-amd64-netinst.iso)

That already seems a little odd but OK I suppose.

Post by Ant
in an old 64-bit W7 HPE SP1 VirtualBox v6.1 VM with a brand new
virtual SSD (2 virtual drives = 1 old W7 HDD + 1 new blank SSD). I'm
trying it
before doing it virtually instead of my real physical PC to learn and
practice (don't want to hose my 12 yrs. old real hardware production
PC!). I picked most of Debian's defaults (no GUI packages to install
for now). I'm currently having problems with its GRUB bootloader
part. It detected Vista, but I don't have Vista as shown in my
https://i.ibb.co/ctfV40c/Grub-Vista.gif screen shot/capture. I have
W7!

Detection of various Windows versions isn't always that accurate. But if
you run the installer in the virtual machine there is no way for it to
see any partitions of your host system. Which means it can't mess up
your Windows 7 host system in any way. Or are you trying to install
Debian in your existing Windows 7 virtual machine? But why? Why not just
create another virtual machine?

I'm doing it in VM to practice so I can learn how it is done before I do
it on my real production PC. Obviously, I already ran into problems with
its GRUB in a VM. Ha!

Post by Anssi Saari

Post by Ant
I told it no to its "Install the GRUB boot loader to your primary
drive." and picked /dev/sdb (new virtual SSD) as shown in
https://i.ibb.co/pRKBjBZ/2SDs.gif. I do NOT want to use its GRUB for
dual booting.

That's not going to happen with a virtual machine in any case. Of
course, why not use Grub?

I don't want GRUB to dual boot. I just want to use the BIOS' boot menu
to boot each drive with its installed OS. Like sda is 64-bit W7 HPE SP1.
sdb is my new Debian OS. I know Linux/Debian requires GRUB for its
multiple kernels, recovery, memtest86, etc. I just don't want it to boot
Windows. That will be handled by BIOS' boot menu.

Post by Anssi Saari

Post by Ant
I will manually boot the specific drive to boot its specific OS from
BIOS. Anyways, it completed. I told BIOS to boot the new SSD with
Debian, but it got stuck with a blank black screen with its blinking _
cursor: https://i.ibb.co/v4xWdMP/rebooted-Stuck.gif. My 64-bit W7's
drive still boots though.

I'm not sure which BIOS you told to boot the new SSD?

I hit a key during BIOS screen to boot from a connected drive that it detected.

[Paul]

Post by Ant

Post by Anssi Saari

Post by Ant
Hello.
I downloaded, mounted, and booted Debian's net installer ISO (e.g.,
https://gemmei.ftp.acc.umu.se/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-10.10.0-amd64-netinst.iso
and
https://gemmei.ftp.acc.umu.se/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/bullseye_di_rc2+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-bullseye-DI-rc2-amd64-netinst.iso)

That already seems a little odd but OK I suppose.

Post by Ant
in an old 64-bit W7 HPE SP1 VirtualBox v6.1 VM with a brand new
virtual SSD (2 virtual drives = 1 old W7 HDD + 1 new blank SSD). I'm
trying it
before doing it virtually instead of my real physical PC to learn and
practice (don't want to hose my 12 yrs. old real hardware production
PC!). I picked most of Debian's defaults (no GUI packages to install
for now). I'm currently having problems with its GRUB bootloader
part. It detected Vista, but I don't have Vista as shown in my
https://i.ibb.co/ctfV40c/Grub-Vista.gif screen shot/capture. I have
W7!

Detection of various Windows versions isn't always that accurate. But if
you run the installer in the virtual machine there is no way for it to
see any partitions of your host system. Which means it can't mess up
your Windows 7 host system in any way. Or are you trying to install
Debian in your existing Windows 7 virtual machine? But why? Why not just
create another virtual machine?

I'm doing it in VM to practice so I can learn how it is done before I do
it on my real production PC. Obviously, I already ran into problems with
its GRUB in a VM. Ha!

Post by Anssi Saari

Post by Ant
I told it no to its "Install the GRUB boot loader to your primary
drive." and picked /dev/sdb (new virtual SSD) as shown in
https://i.ibb.co/pRKBjBZ/2SDs.gif. I do NOT want to use its GRUB for
dual booting.

That's not going to happen with a virtual machine in any case. Of
course, why not use Grub?

I don't want GRUB to dual boot. I just want to use the BIOS' boot menu
to boot each drive with its installed OS. Like sda is 64-bit W7 HPE SP1.
sdb is my new Debian OS. I know Linux/Debian requires GRUB for its
multiple kernels, recovery, memtest86, etc. I just don't want it to boot
Windows. That will be handled by BIOS' boot menu.
I hit a key during BIOS screen to boot from a connected drive that it detected.

So your setup, then, the final setup, looks like this.
Your intention is to press F11 and use the popup boot
to vector the BIOS to one drive or the other.

+------+---------------------+-----------------+
| MBR | System Reserved 1GB | Windows 7 C: | Existing HDD
+------+---------------------+-----------------+

+------+----------+----------------------------+
| MBR | Swap 1GB | Debian slash partition | New SSD
+------+----------+----------------------------+

To do this, you unplug the Windows 7 hard drive, and
use just the new SSD by itself. Use the Debian DVD
and do the install.

Then, plug the Windows 7 HDD in again.

*******

When it comes time to decide where GRUB goes, with
only the SSD present in the machine, GRUB can only
go one place, and that's the SSD. Since the Win7 drive
is unplugged, there's no way for GRUB to leap across
and do anything to the HDD.

Paul

[Ant]

In alt.os.debian Paul <***@needed.invalid> wrote:
...

Post by Paul
So your setup, then, the final setup, looks like this.
Your intention is to press F11 and use the popup boot
to vector the BIOS to one drive or the other.
+------+---------------------+-----------------+
| MBR | System Reserved 1GB | Windows 7 C: | Existing HDD
+------+---------------------+-----------------+
+------+----------+----------------------------+
| MBR | Swap 1GB | Debian slash partition | New SSD
+------+----------+----------------------------+

Correct!

Post by Paul
To do this, you unplug the Windows 7 hard drive, and
use just the new SSD by itself. Use the Debian DVD
and do the install.
Then, plug the Windows 7 HDD in again.
*******
When it comes time to decide where GRUB goes, with
only the SSD present in the machine, GRUB can only
go one place, and that's the SSD. Since the Win7 drive
is unplugged, there's no way for GRUB to leap across
and do anything to the HDD.

So, there's no way to do this without physically disconnecting W7 drive. :(

[Paul]

Post by Ant

Post by Paul
+------+---------------------+-----------------+
| MBR | System Reserved 1GB | Windows 7 C: | Existing HDD
+------+---------------------+-----------------+
+------+----------+----------------------------+
| MBR | Swap 1GB | Debian slash partition | New SSD
+------+----------+----------------------------+

So, there's no way to do this without physically disconnecting W7 drive. :(

I'm explaining "best practice" to you, a best practice
distilled from disasters.

Did you know I've lost two drives with files on them,
to Debian install side effects ??? That's the track record
testing Debian releases over the years.

I recommend extreme caution and doing a backup of ANYTHING
inside the computer before you begin.

With the Debian, it's rubber gloves and hip waders for
protection. Other distros don't have nearly the collateral damage
track record here.

Yes, yes, of course you can manually steer the install
and make it do the right things. One mistake and...
"cleanup in aisle five", you will have some restoring
to do.

The "best practice" of having just the target drive present,
is a "mental thing". It means you have the assurance that
nothing can possibly write to the other drive. If you wish
to take more risk, you can... but have backups-in-hand. I'm
pretty sure that a data restore will be issue free, if and
when you need it.

To make the machine I'm typing on "bullet proof" in the
way you need it to be done, would take me 2/3rds of a day
for the backups. Unplugging the cables is so so much
easier.

Paul

[Ant]

Post by Paul

Post by Ant

Post by Paul
+------+---------------------+-----------------+
| MBR | System Reserved 1GB | Windows 7 C: | Existing HDD
+------+---------------------+-----------------+
+------+----------+----------------------------+
| MBR | Swap 1GB | Debian slash partition | New SSD
+------+----------+----------------------------+

So, there's no way to do this without physically disconnecting W7 drive. :(

I'm explaining "best practice" to you, a best practice
distilled from disasters.
Did you know I've lost two drives with files on them,
to Debian install side effects ??? That's the track record
testing Debian releases over the years.

Even with stable releases? :O

Post by Paul
I recommend extreme caution and doing a backup of ANYTHING
inside the computer before you begin.

I always do!

Post by Paul
With the Debian, it's rubber gloves and hip waders for
protection. Other distros don't have nearly the collateral damage
track record here.

Interesting. Maybe I need to dump Debian and try something else. :(

[Paul]

Post by Ant
Interesting. Maybe I need to dump Debian and try something else. :(

Maybe you need to follow best practices.

Two drives backed up on my part,
would have been two drives less damage.

Paul

[Mike Easter]

Post by Ant
I downloaded, mounted, and booted Debian's net installer ISO

Personally I would have used the live .iso installer via torrent

https://www.debian.org/CD/live/

Post by Ant
DVD/USB (via BitTorrent)
"Hybrid" ISO image files suitable for writing to DVD-R(W) media, and also USB keys of the appropriate size. If you can use BitTorrent, please do, as it reduces the load on our servers.

https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/bt-dvd/

Personally I would rather have live than virtual and I would rather have
it on a USB for live than optical and I'm unfamiliar w/ netinstalls. I
just know that torrenting is typically VERY fast. I check the .iso/s
has and authenticate, in this case authenticate the hash.

The live is also non-harmful to your Win install.

[Ant]

Post by Mike Easter

Post by Ant
I downloaded, mounted, and booted Debian's net installer ISO

Personally I would have used the live .iso installer via torrent
https://www.debian.org/CD/live/

Why a live installer to install Debian?

Post by Mike Easter

Post by Ant
DVD/USB (via BitTorrent)
"Hybrid" ISO image files suitable for writing to DVD-R(W) media, and also USB keys of the appropriate size. If you can use BitTorrent, please do, as it reduces the load on our servers.

https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/bt-dvd/
Personally I would rather have live than virtual and I would rather have
it on a USB for live than optical and I'm unfamiliar w/ netinstalls. I
just know that torrenting is typically VERY fast. I check the .iso/s
has and authenticate, in this case authenticate the hash.
The live is also non-harmful to your Win install.

But I want to install Debian into my other drive that doesn't have
64-bit W7 HPE SP1 OS. I use net installer so I can download and install
specific updated packages.

[J]

If I were you, I would just write the debian iso to a flash drive with rufus,
then turn off the PC and unplug the Windows HDD,
boot from the debian USB flash drive and install normally to the SSD.

Then just plug the Windows HDD back in and make sure the boot order is set
however you prefer, I'm guessing Windows first, then if you want debian you
can just manually select the SSD in the BIOS from the select boot device menu.

[Ant]

Post by J
If I were you, I would just write the debian iso to a flash drive with rufus,
then turn off the PC and unplug the Windows HDD,
boot from the debian USB flash drive and install normally to the SSD.
Then just plug the Windows HDD back in and make sure the boot order is set
however you prefer, I'm guessing Windows first, then if you want debian you
can just manually select the SSD in the BIOS from the select boot device menu.

So, there's no way to do it without unplugging the disconnecting the
WIndows drive? I thought GRUB wasn't supposed to touch my other drive
when I told it no and only to install into the SSD drive for its Debian.

[J]

Post by Ant

Post by J
If I were you, I would just write the debian iso to a flash drive with rufus,
then turn off the PC and unplug the Windows HDD,
boot from the debian USB flash drive and install normally to the SSD.
Then just plug the Windows HDD back in and make sure the boot order is set
however you prefer, I'm guessing Windows first, then if you want debian you
can just manually select the SSD in the BIOS from the select boot device menu.

So, there's no way to do it without unplugging the disconnecting the
WIndows drive? I thought GRUB wasn't supposed to touch my other drive
when I told it no and only to install into the SSD drive for its Debian.

It's mainly a precaution, just to make sure nothing funny happens with the GRUB
install. Keeps things simple.

If you want to experiment, you could run through the process with VirtualBox
and see what happens.
Might be a little tedious, but you just need a virtual harddrive with Win7 (or w/e)
accessible to the Debian VM while you install Debian to it's own virtual harddrive.

[Ant]

Post by J

Post by Ant

Post by J
If I were you, I would just write the debian iso to a flash drive with rufus,
then turn off the PC and unplug the Windows HDD,
boot from the debian USB flash drive and install normally to the SSD.
Then just plug the Windows HDD back in and make sure the boot order is set
however you prefer, I'm guessing Windows first, then if you want debian you
can just manually select the SSD in the BIOS from the select boot device menu.

So, there's no way to do it without unplugging the disconnecting the
WIndows drive? I thought GRUB wasn't supposed to touch my other drive
when I told it no and only to install into the SSD drive for its Debian.

It's mainly a precaution, just to make sure nothing funny happens with the GRUB
install. Keeps things simple.
If you want to experiment, you could run through the process with VirtualBox
and see what happens.
Might be a little tedious, but you just need a virtual harddrive with Win7 (or w/e)
accessible to the Debian VM while you install Debian to it's own virtual harddrive.

Yeah, it does work. I am still puzzled why it works with the disconnected Windows drive.

[J]

Post by Ant

Post by J

Post by Ant

Post by J
If I were you, I would just write the debian iso to a flash drive with rufus,
then turn off the PC and unplug the Windows HDD,
boot from the debian USB flash drive and install normally to the SSD.
Then just plug the Windows HDD back in and make sure the boot order is set
however you prefer, I'm guessing Windows first, then if you want debian you
can just manually select the SSD in the BIOS from the select boot device menu.

So, there's no way to do it without unplugging the disconnecting the
WIndows drive? I thought GRUB wasn't supposed to touch my other drive
when I told it no and only to install into the SSD drive for its Debian.

It's mainly a precaution, just to make sure nothing funny happens with the GRUB
install. Keeps things simple.
If you want to experiment, you could run through the process with VirtualBox
and see what happens.
Might be a little tedious, but you just need a virtual harddrive with Win7 (or w/e)
accessible to the Debian VM while you install Debian to it's own virtual harddrive.

Yeah, it does work. I am still puzzled why it works with the disconnected Windows drive.

I tried my experiment myself, with the Windows 7 virtual HDD attached to the Debian VM,
I installed Debian to sdb, and installed GRUB to sdb. The results were fine, the Win7
HDD was untouched and the Debian HDD booted with GRUB properly. There was also a GRUB entry
to boot Win7, which I did not test, but I assume works.

[Ant]

Post by J

Post by Ant

Post by J

Post by Ant

Post by J
If I were you, I would just write the debian iso to a flash drive with rufus,
then turn off the PC and unplug the Windows HDD,
boot from the debian USB flash drive and install normally to the SSD.
Then just plug the Windows HDD back in and make sure the boot order is set
however you prefer, I'm guessing Windows first, then if you want debian you
can just manually select the SSD in the BIOS from the select boot device menu.

So, there's no way to do it without unplugging the disconnecting the
WIndows drive? I thought GRUB wasn't supposed to touch my other drive
when I told it no and only to install into the SSD drive for its Debian.

It's mainly a precaution, just to make sure nothing funny happens with the GRUB
install. Keeps things simple.
If you want to experiment, you could run through the process with VirtualBox
and see what happens.
Might be a little tedious, but you just need a virtual harddrive with Win7 (or w/e)
accessible to the Debian VM while you install Debian to it's own virtual harddrive.

Yeah, it does work. I am still puzzled why it works with the disconnected Windows drive.

I tried my experiment myself, with the Windows 7 virtual HDD attached to the Debian VM,
I installed Debian to sdb, and installed GRUB to sdb. The results were fine, the Win7
HDD was untouched and the Debian HDD booted with GRUB properly. There was also a GRUB entry
to boot Win7, which I did not test, but I assume works.

I assume you told it to install into primary drive and then sdb. Try saying no to primary drive and then to sdb.

[J]

Post by Ant
I assume you told it to install into primary drive and then sdb. Try saying no to primary drive and then to sdb.

?

[Ant]

Post by Ant
I assume you told it to install into primary drive and then sdb. Try saying no to primary drive and then to sdb.

?

Loading Image... -- Say no to this part and then try /dev/sdb.

[J]

Post by Ant

Post by Ant
I assume you told it to install into primary drive and then sdb. Try saying no to primary drive and then to sdb.

?

https://i.ibb.co/1b2TYbr/primary.gif -- Say no to this part and then try /dev/sdb.

I am using the Debian 10.10 DVD, it does not ask me that question.
It just asks which drive to install GRUB to.

[Ant]

Post by J

Post by Ant

Post by Ant
I assume you told it to install into primary drive and then sdb. Try saying no to primary drive and then to sdb.

?

https://i.ibb.co/1b2TYbr/primary.gif -- Say no to this part and then try /dev/sdb.

I am using the Debian 10.10 DVD, it does not ask me that question.
It just asks which drive to install GRUB to.

Interesting.

[Daniel65]

Post by J

Post by Ant

Post by Ant
I assume you told it to install into primary drive and then sdb. Try
saying no to primary drive and then to sdb.

?

https://i.ibb.co/1b2TYbr/primary.gif -- Say no to this part and then try /dev/sdb.

I am using the Debian 10.10 DVD, it does not ask me that question.
It just asks which drive to install GRUB to.

When you do your Debian 10.10 install, are you doing a standard,
straight out of the box, install Or do you do a 'Custom' install??

It may only be on the 'Custom' install situation that you get the
opportunity to select where you want to install the OS.

[J]

Post by Daniel65
When you do your Debian 10.10 install, are you doing a standard,
straight out of the box, install Or do you do a 'Custom' install??
It may only be on the 'Custom' install situation that you get the
opportunity to select where you want to install the OS.

(Accidentally clicked reply the first time around, woops, not awake yet.)


I'm not sure what you mean, but here's a ~3minute ~2MB gif of my install
process Loading Image...

debian 10.10 dvd installer iso

debian hdd sata 0 / sda
win7 hdd sata 1 / sdb


At the end of the gif I didn't fully boot either OS, but they both work.
Win7 however is just a little upset because I've unsafely reset it a few
times.

[Jack Strangio]

Post by J

Post by Ant
Yeah, it does work. I am still puzzled why it works with the disconnected Windows drive.

I tried my experiment myself, with the Windows 7 virtual HDD attached to the Debian VM,
I installed Debian to sdb, and installed GRUB to sdb. The results were fine, the Win7
HDD was untouched and the Debian HDD booted with GRUB properly. There was also a GRUB entry
to boot Win7, which I did not test, but I assume works.

That's what I would have expected, and it does work properly when installing
Mint to /dev/sdb with Win 7 on /dev/sda. But I tried to install Debian
Buster DVD-1, I had the same problem as the OP with a blank black screen
when I tried to boot directly to /dev/sdb using F12 on the virtualbox.
Wierd, huh?

Which Debian version did you use?

Post by J
Average Eee PC 901 enjoyer

Great little machines, those 901s.

Regards,

Jack

[J]

Post by Jack Strangio
Which Debian version did you use?

The 10.10 DVD.

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by J
Average Eee PC 901 enjoyer

Great little machines, those 901s.

Forever my favorite portable device despite all its weaknesses

[Jack Strangio]

Post by Ant
I told it no to its "Install the GRUB boot loader to your primary drive." and picked /dev/sdb (new virtual SSD) as shown in https://i.ibb.co/pRKBjBZ/2SDs.gif. I do NOT want to use its GRUB for dual booting. I will manually boot the specific drive to boot its specific OS from BIOS. Anyways, it completed. I told BIOS to boot the new SSD with Debian, but it got stuck with a blank black screen with its blinking _ cursor: https://i.ibb.co/v4xWdMP/rebooted-Stuck.gif. My 64-bit W7's drive still boots though.

The 'primary drive' is the drive that the *BIOS* goes to to find the boot
manager.

Some BIOSs will allow you to set a different drive as the boot drive. Go to
'BIOS Setup' for that, if it's available on your machine.

As long as the BIOS can find a boot manager, you can install GRUB on that
drive and then boot an opearating system from any drive that exists, even
USB ones.

Jack

[Ant]

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
I told it no to its "Install the GRUB boot loader to your primary drive." and picked /dev/sdb (new virtual SSD) as shown in https://i.ibb.co/pRKBjBZ/2SDs.gif. I do NOT want to use its GRUB for dual booting. I will manually boot the specific drive to boot its specific OS from BIOS. Anyways, it completed. I told BIOS to boot the new SSD with Debian, but it got stuck with a blank black screen with its blinking _ cursor: https://i.ibb.co/v4xWdMP/rebooted-Stuck.gif. My 64-bit W7's drive still boots though.

The 'primary drive' is the drive that the *BIOS* goes to to find the boot
manager.
Some BIOSs will allow you to set a different drive as the boot drive. Go to
'BIOS Setup' for that, if it's available on your machine.
As long as the BIOS can find a boot manager, you can install GRUB on that
drive and then boot an opearating system from any drive that exists, even
USB ones.

Interesting. It looks like VirtualBox doesn't use the same BIOS' CMOS
like real hardwares. I will look for them when I try it on my 13 (not
12) years old PC later. I do remember it having option to boot which
drive to boot from. Even a hot key during BIOS boot up to pick which
drive to boot from. FYI. The physical motherboard is MSI P43 NEO3-F
(MSI-7514) motherboard from 12/27/2008.

[Paul]

Post by Ant

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
I told it no to its "Install the GRUB boot loader to your primary drive." and picked /dev/sdb (new virtual SSD) as shown in https://i.ibb.co/pRKBjBZ/2SDs.gif. I do NOT want to use its GRUB for dual booting. I will manually boot the specific drive to boot its specific OS from BIOS. Anyways, it completed. I told BIOS to boot the new SSD with Debian, but it got stuck with a blank black screen with its blinking _ cursor: https://i.ibb.co/v4xWdMP/rebooted-Stuck.gif. My 64-bit W7's drive still boots though.

The 'primary drive' is the drive that the *BIOS* goes to to find the boot
manager.
Some BIOSs will allow you to set a different drive as the boot drive. Go to
'BIOS Setup' for that, if it's available on your machine.
As long as the BIOS can find a boot manager, you can install GRUB on that
drive and then boot an opearating system from any drive that exists, even
USB ones.

Interesting. It looks like VirtualBox doesn't use the same BIOS' CMOS
like real hardwares. I will look for them when I try it on my 13 (not
12) years old PC later. I do remember it having option to boot which
drive to boot from. Even a hot key during BIOS boot up to pick which
drive to boot from. FYI. The physical motherboard is MSI P43 NEO3-F
(MSI-7514) motherboard from 12/27/2008.

Your board supports legacy MSDOS partitioning and legacy boot.
There is no UEFI with GPT partitioning, no UEFI+CSM.

There isn't even a popup boot key.

In the boot order, there is only "boot from other".
The word USB does not appear in that section.

There is no separate page for USB choices. Some BIOS
from around 2005, had a complete BIOS screen page for USB.

Sticking with virtual machines is your best bet now :-/

The ISO for your desired Guest, will be mounted inside the
container and by the hosting software, so (fortunately) you
don't have to worry about that part.

+------+-----------------------------+
| MBR | Windows 7 |
| | +--------------+ |
| | |Container for | |
| | |Linux | |
| | +--------------+ |
+------+-----------------------------+

Say the hosting software in Windows 7 is VirtualBox. You
declare a "new machine" in VirtualBox, tell it what
distro it is, and that prepares the initial emulated
hardware choices for it. Since it's a container,
the machine inside the dotted lines there, it can't
do *anything* to the rest of the machine. Not a
blasted thing. The only thing you can
do from inside a VM, is a denial of service attack
(use the VM to waste some sort of resources on or
near the machine).

Why did I draw it that way ?

I drew a conservative implementation intended to
"not have you constantly entering the BIOS and
screwing around". This is how I plan my own
layouts - they're determined by the machine
capabilities. The more hobbled a computer is,
the less flexible the layouts.

Your board seems to have the BIOS of an S478
motherboard, and a LGA775 socket. I was thinking
at first "hey, this could be my P4B motherboard".
The thing is, that's exactly what LGA775 is.
It is S478, but with a ton of extra VCore and GND
contacts for power hog CPUs. That was Intels plan
at the time. Fortunately, the Israel arch team
foiled the evil plan, so lower power processors
ended up in that socket :-) Intel had been planning
for a "Prescott Plus" processor. Some part of the
CPU, like bond wires, sets some limits on current flow,
but so do the socket contacts. And my guess at the
time was, that Intel was hedging their bets a bit.

Now, the GRUB for the virtual machine, is inside
the container with the rest of it, and cannot escape.

I happen to have a Debian loaded in my VM collection,
so a screenshot is in order.

"Deb Guest in Windows"

Loading Image...

Paul

[Ant]

In alt.os.debian Paul <***@needed.invalid> wrote:
...

Post by Paul
Your board supports legacy MSDOS partitioning and legacy boot.
There is no UEFI with GPT partitioning, no UEFI+CSM.
There isn't even a popup boot key.

There's a popup boot key (F11) during BIOS. I also can go to its CMOS
and change the boot sequence order too!

Post by Paul
In the boot order, there is only "boot from other".
The word USB does not appear in that section.
There is no separate page for USB choices. Some BIOS
from around 2005, had a complete BIOS screen page for USB.

I'm not worried about bootable USB devices. I still have an old school
optical drive that will do Debian's net install. It's a very old PC! ;)

[Jack Strangio]

Post by Ant

Post by Jack Strangio
As long as the BIOS can find a boot manager, you can install GRUB on that
drive and then boot an opearating system from any drive that exists, even
USB ones.

Interesting. It looks like VirtualBox doesn't use the same BIOS' CMOS
like real hardwares. I will look for them when I try it on my 13 (not
12) years old PC later. I do remember it having option to boot which
drive to boot from. Even a hot key during BIOS boot up to pick which
drive to boot from. FYI. The physical motherboard is MSI P43 NEO3-F
(MSI-7514) motherboard from 12/27/2008.

It really shouldn't matter whether you are using a virtualbox with two
separate hard drives, or a real machine with two separate hard drives.

The boot-menu key on both my real machine and on my virtualbox is F12 for
the MBR style disk label.

In any case, the BIOS *has to* find a boot manager. Ferinstance,
to make things a little clearer, you might have Windows with its
own boot manager on /dev/sda. You might also have Debian on /dev/sdb.

The windows boot manager doesn't know about the Linux on /dev/sdb. So
you can't boot debian using the Windows boot manager. Now, you could put grub
on /dev/sda, which would allow a dual-boot (Windows plus debian) but you
don't want that. You want to boot debian using the BIOS boot-menu.

BUT ... if you select /dev/sdb from the boot-menu, the BIOS won't find any
boot manager to do the secondary and tertiary boots on /dev/sdb *unless* you
install some some of boot-manager on /dev/sdb also, in addition to the Windows
boot manager on /dev/sda.

Mind you, you can dual-boot using the Windows boot manager (IIRC) as well as
dual-booting using grub.

If you insist on keeping the two hard drives completely separate, each hard
drive must have its own boot manager.

Jack

[Ant]

Post by Jack Strangio
It really shouldn't matter whether you are using a virtualbox with two
separate hard drives, or a real machine with two separate hard drives.
The boot-menu key on both my real machine and on my virtualbox is F12 for
the MBR style disk label.
In any case, the BIOS *has to* find a boot manager. Ferinstance,
to make things a little clearer, you might have Windows with its
own boot manager on /dev/sda. You might also have Debian on /dev/sdb.

That is what it shown in Debian's net-installer. At first, it wanted to
install GRUB boot loader in the primary drive. I assumed it meant
/dev/sda, so I told it to put it in /dev/sdb where the new Debian was
installed. I don't want it to touch my 64-bit Windows drive.

Post by Jack Strangio
The windows boot manager doesn't know about the Linux on /dev/sdb. So
you can't boot debian using the Windows boot manager. Now, you could put grub
on /dev/sda, which would allow a dual-boot (Windows plus debian) but you
don't want that. You want to boot debian using the BIOS boot-menu.

Correct!

Post by Jack Strangio
BUT ... if you select /dev/sdb from the boot-menu, the BIOS won't find any
boot manager to do the secondary and tertiary boots on /dev/sdb *unless* you
install some some of boot-manager on /dev/sdb also, in addition to the Windows
boot manager on /dev/sda.

Installing GRUB's boot loader into /dev/sdb should work if I boot it
from BIOS' boot menu, right? /dev/sda (Windows drive) would be
untouched. Nothing changed. No new boot loader since it is still the
same boot loader from 64-bit W7 HPE SP1.

Post by Jack Strangio
Mind you, you can dual-boot using the Windows boot manager (IIRC) as well as
dual-booting using grub.
If you insist on keeping the two hard drives completely separate, each hard
drive must have its own boot manager.

Correct. This is what I want. Windows 7's drive uses its own boot
loader. Debian uses its GRUB boot loader. However, booting Debian
resulted blank black screen with its top left blinking white cursor.

Here's what's interesting in VM as a test. I disconnected the old W7
drive and added the new drive. I installed new Debian into it and booted
it fine. So I shut down the VM, readded the old W7 drive, booted back up
to test both drives. Both drives' OSes booted up fine from BIOS' boot
menu. So, why do I have to disconnect the drive to install Debian with
its GRUB into its Debian drive (sdb)? :/

FYI. The 13 years old PC currently has 3 bootable SATA HDDs (64-bit W7
HPE SP1, XP Pro. SP3 [going to get rid of it soon since I rarely use
it], and Debian Jessie v8 [need to wipe it and start clean!]. I can boot
each drive and its OS from the BIOS' boot menu without any issues. Each
drive's OS uses its own boot loader. I just want to install new Debian
to replace the old outdated Debian v8 Jessie from scratch without
touching the other Windows drive(s).

[Jack Strangio]

Post by Ant
Installing GRUB's boot loader into /dev/sdb should work if I boot it
from BIOS' boot menu, right? /dev/sda (Windows drive) would be
untouched. Nothing changed. No new boot loader since it is still the
same boot loader from 64-bit W7 HPE SP1.

Yes. Just for kicks I set up a virtualbox system with 2 hard drives and
installed Debian on /dev/sda with grub installed to /dev/sda

I also installed mint to /dev/sdb with mint's grub installed to /dev/sdb.

Using the F12 key, I can boot up into either debian or into mint. And
because the debian grub menu looks different from the mint grub menu, I
can see that each hard drive is using its own grub boot manager.

Post by Ant
Correct. This is what I want. Windows 7's drive uses its own boot
loader. Debian uses its GRUB boot loader. However, booting Debian
resulted blank black screen with its top left blinking white cursor.

Bad install??? Either of debian or of grub??

Post by Ant
Here's what's interesting in VM as a test. I disconnected the old W7
drive and added the new drive. I installed new Debian into it and booted
it fine. So I shut down the VM, readded the old W7 drive, booted back up
to test both drives. Both drives' OSes booted up fine from BIOS' boot
menu. So, why do I have to disconnect the drive to install Debian with
its GRUB into its Debian drive (sdb)? :/

You shouldn't have to. I didn't do that in my example above.

Post by Ant
FYI. The 13 years old PC currently has 3 bootable SATA HDDs (64-bit W7
HPE SP1, XP Pro. SP3 [going to get rid of it soon since I rarely use
it], and Debian Jessie v8 [need to wipe it and start clean!]. I can boot
each drive and its OS from the BIOS' boot menu without any issues. Each
drive's OS uses its own boot loader. I just want to install new Debian
to replace the old outdated Debian v8 Jessie from scratch without
touching the other Windows drive(s).

As above, you shouldn't need disconnect stuff to do a debian install.
Having said that, it might pay to look and see whether the BIOS is using a
different configuration for the hard-drive sequence from what Linux is
seeing.

EG: BIOS drive 1 is /dev/sda
BIOS drive 2 is /dev/sdc
BIOS drive 3 is /dev/sdb

It's unlikely but always possible. That used to be the bane of our lives
once upon a time, because you never knew what drive letter would be
allocated to a USB drive when it was inserted. These days we can use
UUIDs and forget about problems like that.

Regards,

Jack

[Ant]

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
Installing GRUB's boot loader into /dev/sdb should work if I boot it
from BIOS' boot menu, right? /dev/sda (Windows drive) would be
untouched. Nothing changed. No new boot loader since it is still the
same boot loader from 64-bit W7 HPE SP1.

Yes. Just for kicks I set up a virtualbox system with 2 hard drives and
installed Debian on /dev/sda with grub installed to /dev/sda
I also installed mint to /dev/sdb with mint's grub installed to /dev/sdb.
Using the F12 key, I can boot up into either debian or into mint. And
because the debian grub menu looks different from the mint grub menu, I
can see that each hard drive is using its own grub boot manager.

Nice. Can you do the same with 64-bit W7 or 10 (first before adding a
new drive and installing Debian)?

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
Correct. This is what I want. Windows 7's drive uses its own boot
loader. Debian uses its GRUB boot loader. However, booting Debian
resulted blank black screen with its top left blinking white cursor.

Bad install??? Either of debian or of grub??

Maybe? I can reproduce it with both Debian's Buster v10.10 and Bullseye
v11's net installer. :(

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
Here's what's interesting in VM as a test. I disconnected the old W7
drive and added the new drive. I installed new Debian into it and booted
it fine. So I shut down the VM, readded the old W7 drive, booted back up
to test both drives. Both drives' OSes booted up fine from BIOS' boot
menu. So, why do I have to disconnect the drive to install Debian with
its GRUB into its Debian drive (sdb)? :/

You shouldn't have to. I didn't do that in my example above.

Interesting and weird!

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
FYI. The 13 years old PC currently has 3 bootable SATA HDDs (64-bit W7
HPE SP1, XP Pro. SP3 [going to get rid of it soon since I rarely use
it], and Debian Jessie v8 [need to wipe it and start clean!]. I can boot
each drive and its OS from the BIOS' boot menu without any issues. Each
drive's OS uses its own boot loader. I just want to install new Debian
to replace the old outdated Debian v8 Jessie from scratch without
touching the other Windows drive(s).

As above, you shouldn't need disconnect stuff to do a debian install.
Having said that, it might pay to look and see whether the BIOS is using a
different configuration for the hard-drive sequence from what Linux is
seeing.
EG: BIOS drive 1 is /dev/sda
BIOS drive 2 is /dev/sdc
BIOS drive 3 is /dev/sdb

I will check it out when I do my new Debian installation later on. Too
bad, VirtualBox doesn't have a BIOS' CMOS screen options like real PCs.
Here are the closest things:
Loading Image...

Post by Jack Strangio
It's unlikely but always possible. That used to be the bane of our lives
once upon a time, because you never knew what drive letter would be
allocated to a USB drive when it was inserted. These days we can use
UUIDs and forget about problems like that.

UUIDs confuse me. :/


Just for kicks, I told Debian's net installer's GRUB Boot Loader to be
installed into primary drive. I tried both /dev/sda and /dev/sdb
separately.

I tried /dev/sda (Windows) and booted it from BIOS' boot menu to this
old Windows drive, its GRUB showed both OSes (W7 in /dev/sda1). I
rebooted to boot from new Debian drive resulted a blank black screen
with its top left blinking cursor.

I reverted my VM and this time, I told Debian's net-installer to install
its GRUB into /dev/sdb (new Debian drive and installation), booted up to
Debian drive, and saw GRUB boot up with both OS options that worked. I
rebooted and booted into the Windows drive (/dev/sda), and it loaded W7
fine.

I guess on my real PC, I'll have to tell it to install into primary
drive where Debian was installed. It's so strange and confusing that not
using primary drive option and installing GRUB boot loader in either sda
(W7) or sdb (Debian) drive resulted a blank black screen with its top
left blinking cursor when trying to boot up the new installed Debian. W7
boot up fine.

[Jack Strangio]

Post by Ant

Post by Jack Strangio
Using the F12 key, I can boot up into either debian or into mint.

Nice. Can you do the same with 64-bit W7 or 10 (first before adding a
new drive and installing Debian)?

No hassles at all with Win7 plus installing Mint on /dev/sdb. F12 will
let me boot Win 7 via the Win boot system, and Mint comes up via the
Mint Grub menu.

Post by Ant

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
loader. Debian uses its GRUB boot loader. However, booting Debian
resulted blank black screen with its top left blinking white cursor.

Bad install??? Either of debian or of grub??

Maybe? I can reproduce it with both Debian's Buster v10.10 and Bullseye
v11's net installer. :(

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
So, why do I have to disconnect the drive to install Debian with
its GRUB into its Debian drive (sdb)? :/

You shouldn't have to. I didn't do that in my example above.

Nor with Win 7 already on /dev/sda, and then adding Mint on /dev/sdb.
Everything went like clockwork, just like it should.

BUT .... when I tried to install Debian Buster, I got exactly the same
thing that you did: a blank black screen. So my surmise yesterday that
it could be a faulty install looks like it might have been right after
all. I suspect that debian's grub manual installer is not working
properly.

Mint works OK, Debian doesn't.

Post by Ant

Post by Jack Strangio
once upon a time, ... you never knew what drive letter would be
allocated to a USB drive when it was inserted. These days we can use
UUIDs and forget about problems like that.

UUIDs confuse me. :/

Nah. Just think of them like car rego numbers. You might have 174
identical blue Fords, but you distinguish all of them from each other easily
because they all have different rego numbers. You're not allowed two car
number plates the same, and you're not allowed two UUIDs the same. (Well,
in practical terms anyway.) The UUIDs just look confusing because of the raw
randomness of their appearance.

Post by Ant
I tried /dev/sda (Windows) and booted it from BIOS' boot menu to this
old Windows drive, its GRUB showed both OSes (W7 in /dev/sda1). I
rebooted to boot from new Debian drive resulted a blank black screen
with its top left blinking cursor.

That's to be expected. The windows-disk's grub will show and boot both Win
and Debian. But without a grub on the debian-disk, when you boot directly
to /dev/sdb with F12, there's nowhere for the CPU to go to, so it just zooms
away off into the wild blue yonder and leaves you with a blank black screen.

Post by Ant
I reverted my VM and this time, I told Debian's net-installer to install
its GRUB into /dev/sdb (new Debian drive and installation), booted up to
Debian drive, and saw GRUB boot up with both OS options that worked. I
rebooted and booted into the Windows drive (/dev/sda), and it loaded W7
fine.

That's basically what I said just above. With a grub on the debian-disk,
the boot-up can proceed naturally. Without a grub on /dev/sdb if you're
booting directly /dev/sdb with F12, you won't boot up at all. That's why
most of us, if we have two or more OSs on one machine, have just one
boot-manager on the primary (/dev/sda) drive, and let it work it's magic
from there.

Post by Ant
I guess on my real PC, I'll have to tell it to install into primary
drive where Debian was installed. It's so strange and confusing that not
using primary drive option and installing GRUB boot loader in either sda
(W7) or sdb (Debian) drive resulted a blank black screen with its top
left blinking cursor when trying to boot up the new installed Debian.

Sorry to say, but this may be the case if you want to use debian on
/dev/sdb specifically .But you only have to jump a few hurdles for a very
short time during the actual installation procedure. It's a bummer, but I
suspect that somebody will fix that debian-grub manual installer problem
eventually.

Regards,

Jack.

[Ant]

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant

Post by Jack Strangio
Using the F12 key, I can boot up into either debian or into mint.

Nice. Can you do the same with 64-bit W7 or 10 (first before adding a
new drive and installing Debian)?

No hassles at all with Win7 plus installing Mint on /dev/sdb. F12 will
let me boot Win 7 via the Win boot system, and Mint comes up via the
Mint Grub menu.

Post by Ant

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
loader. Debian uses its GRUB boot loader. However, booting Debian
resulted blank black screen with its top left blinking white cursor.

Bad install??? Either of debian or of grub??

Maybe? I can reproduce it with both Debian's Buster v10.10 and Bullseye
v11's net installers. :(

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
So, why do I have to disconnect the drive to install Debian with
its GRUB into its Debian drive (sdb)? :/

You shouldn't have to. I didn't do that in my example above.

Nor with Win 7 already on /dev/sda, and then adding Mint on /dev/sdb.
Everything went like clockwork, just like it should.
BUT .... when I tried to install Debian Buster, I got exactly the same
thing that you did: a blank black screen. So my surmise yesterday that
it could be a faulty install looks like it might have been right after
all. I suspect that debian's grub manual installer is not working
properly.
Mint works OK, Debian doesn't.

Interesting. It happened in Bullseye v11 RC2 too for me. It seems like
Debian's installers have a bug?

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
I reverted my VM and this time, I told Debian's net-installer to install
its GRUB into /dev/sdb (new Debian drive and installation), booted up to
Debian drive, and saw GRUB boot up with both OS options that worked. I
rebooted and booted into the Windows drive (/dev/sda), and it loaded W7
fine.

That's basically what I said just above. With a grub on the debian-disk,
the boot-up can proceed naturally. Without a grub on /dev/sdb if you're
booting directly /dev/sdb with F12, you won't boot up at all. That's why
most of us, if we have two or more OSs on one machine, have just one
boot-manager on the primary (/dev/sda) drive, and let it work it's magic
from there.

So, if the primary drive dies or removed, then user can't boot Linux. :(
I wanted to separate them.

Post by Jack Strangio

Post by Ant
I guess on my real PC, I'll have to tell it to install into primary
drive where Debian was installed. It's so strange and confusing that not
using primary drive option and installing GRUB boot loader in either sda
(W7) or sdb (Debian) drive resulted a blank black screen with its top
left blinking cursor when trying to boot up the new installed Debian.

Sorry to say, but this may be the case if you want to use debian on
/dev/sdb specifically .But you only have to jump a few hurdles for a very
short time during the actual installation procedure. It's a bummer, but I
suspect that somebody will fix that debian-grub manual installer problem
eventually.

Hmm, I will file a bug report, but need to figure out what package it is since I can't run reportbug program.

[Ant]

In alt.os.linux.debian Ant <***@zimage.comant> wrote:
...

Post by Ant
Hmm, I will file a bug report, but need to figure out what package it is since I can't run reportbug program.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=990704

[Mike Easter]

However, booting Debian resulted blank black screen with its top left
blinking white cursor.

That is one of the advantages of booting a live distro, you get to
explore any issues of hardware compatibilities prior to installing
anything. Of course, in the case of the install you can also use boot
parameters to help out something.